[Supp] Bitcoin.de - Marketplace for Europe

[Christoph Bergmann]

I see, and I understand completley. i don't like the situation. I contacted our chief of support to help me to help you with a notary and I ask him why we can't accept the easier way to verificate you.

About kraken I can't say much. Seems they try to do good business, and most people I spoke to are very satisfied. But with an exchange you have the old problems with withdrawls. They are in the USA, so it's critical to get good support and if they have real problems you have no chance to take the juristical way to get funds back. Also kraken is not always holding what they promise, in the last weeks there have been many complaints about fund/withdrawl problems and a support which does not / very latly react.

I let you know when I know more.

best

Christoph

[cnerd]

None of these verification procedures really works, so why even bother with them?

ID verification is an old method, most of the perpetrators have many many ways to bypass this verification procedure.

In Bulgaria, a fake ID costs about 100-200 Euro, in Russia - about 5 times cheaper.
A fake scan of an Utility Bill? This costs around $5 and there are many many sites that offer this service. Takes about 2 minutes and they even send you the document in .pdf/.jpg/.docx.

I wish that was all of it, but its actually not. If you search enough in the onion network, you will find "registry bundles" that include Drivers License, Government Issued ID, valid private e-mail address (non generic with a private TLD), filled in agreement form, notary stamp, signature cut and domestic bills with a valid address, for the price of $200 a piece. None of the verification procedures you have in place can deal with that. This leaves you with the only option to sit and wait for somebody, who knows exactly what he is doing, to mark you as a target.

We have spent 20 years developing anti-fraud techniques, fraud analiztion methods, merchant gateways and many many more tools to allow us to implement the real money in the internet world. And where did this get us? I should say - nowhere.

Why you ask? Because the Credit Cards were never meant to work over TCP/IP, thats why. The internet protocol was designed without the concept of "hidden/private" information and because of this, fraud will be a forever persistent factor in this equation.

Now we say "Yea, but, look at PayPal", and to a certain degree you will be correct, because for a first time we had a payment platform that was designed for internet use only. And here another question appears. If PayPal is so great, if their anti-fraud system (IGOR) is so profitable (this is the correct word here, PayPal still takes a lot of fraud, but not enough to be a problem for them, which is what we are all aiming for) , why do the rest of us have to continue using the old Verification Procedures?

I think Bitcoin.de is a great exchange for Europeans, mostly because of SEPA, and due to that my opinion is you need to revolutionize the verification process... and even if you dont, please, please, do not go a step back with the notary stamp.

The easiest solution you have is a One Time Bank Transfer Verification. People would much rather go to the bank and send you 5 Euro instead of going back and forth days for a single stamp.

I, too, went trough the procedures for verification an account with you, and to be quite honest, I felt utterly helpless at a certain time, just like 6 years ago, when our own Bulgarian e-pay system denied to verify my account, even though I went to their headquarters, and instead insisted that the only suitable method for verification is for them to send me a snail mail to my home address in the next 2 weeks.

my 5 cents

[Christoph Bergmann]

So you mean the international ID-verification process is unsolid? Maybe this is the reason German money-laundering laws force us to use notarys. This is what our chief of support told me. The good news is, he gave me a short list of cooperating notaries. I don't have them listet with cities, but maybe with the help of google you find out where they are located:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

I hope this helps.

[jkminkov]

why are you so retrograde - using a notary istead of digital signatures for verification? http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sigg_2001/__23.html

[filchef]

I see, and I understand completley. i don't like the situation. I contacted our chief of support to help me to help you with a notary and I ask him why we can't accept the easier way to verificate you.

About kraken I can't say much. Seems they try to do good business, and most people I spoke to are very satisfied. But with an exchange you have the old problems with withdrawls. They are in the USA, so it's critical to get good support and if they have real problems you have no chance to take the juristical way to get funds back. Also kraken is not always holding what they promise, in the last weeks there have been many complaints about fund/withdrawl problems and a support which does not / very latly react.

I let you know when I know more.


best

Christoph

I newer have problems with witdawals from Kraken and they have SEPA witdrawals with 0 fee like you so if was temporary problems last week they are solved already.And about juristical way to get funds back - I newer fund mach more I can loss and for me juristical way to get funds back is more expensive from loss them.
It if it comes to court - maybe the camel maybe the camel driver

[Christoph Bergmann]

I see, and I understand completley. i don't like the situation. I contacted our chief of support to help me to help you with a notary and I ask him why we can't accept the easier way to verificate you.

About kraken I can't say much. Seems they try to do good business, and most people I spoke to are very satisfied. But with an exchange you have the old problems with withdrawls. They are in the USA, so it's critical to get good support and if they have real problems you have no chance to take the juristical way to get funds back. Also kraken is not always holding what they promise, in the last weeks there have been many complaints about fund/withdrawl problems and a support which does not / very latly react.

I let you know when I know more.


best

Christoph

I newer have problems with witdawals from Kraken and they have SEPA witdrawals with 0 fee like you so if was temporary problems last week they are solved already.And about juristical way to get funds back - I newer fund mach more I can loss and for me juristical way to get funds back is more expensive from loss them.
It if it comes to court - maybe the camel maybe the camel driver

I shouldn't talk about other companies here. Sorry for this. Make your own mind. On bitcointalk there are service-discussions about kraken: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290799.1500

The point is: it are two different systems. On bitcoin.de it's impossible you loose anything. The worst case is you sell and the buyer refuses to pay. If that happens, the buyer gets a tradestopp. Since we became stricter with this issue there are nearly no complaints about it.

While bitcoin.de is a decentralized system, an exchange is centralized. This mean you can loose money, and it means, one institution has to operate all the banktransactions. I think most exchanges do very good and try very hard to make this process clean, but it's a very complicated process and it depends also on the banks. I watched the scene for some time and it seems it is nearly impossible to garantee that such a system works fluidly without delays.

About the juristical way I share your position. Never fund more than you can loose ...

[Christoph Bergmann]

why are you so retrograde - using a notary istead of digital signatures for verification? http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sigg_2001/__23.html

Thank you for the idea. Do you have a digital signature?

[vmuser]

I suppose most of us have. And even if someone does not then it's probably better to invest that kind of money in something that could be useful for lots of other things than to spend your money on notary visits. I totally support that kind of authentication since we are in the digital era and not in the paper one - photocopying documents and stuff. Digital signatures are way more secure than paper documents and a two-factor authentication invovling a digital signature and a bank account transfer verifications is the way to go here! This will speed up the verification process to less than a week and removing the burden time for employees in bitcoin.de going through thousands of papers per day.

[filchef]

In Kraken have 4 level for verification one only for ekchange just cryto with crypto and 3 more for exchange crypto for fiat with different amount limit for transfers for day and month.So you can think about this and only for last level to require notarization by a letter that will ensure the anti-money laundering.
And about komplain of this person for not funding him accaunt there is answer in the forum - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic ... msg5420665 - problem was thier fund account and name for registration in Kraken was different.

[Zmejsky]

Някой може ли с 5 думи да разясни за какво си пишете тука , аз също имам акаунт в тая борса и искам да се верифицирам